Posted on by confidentchristianity@gmail.com

I recently returned from Rhode Island where I read a paper at the Evangelical Theological and Philosophical Society National Conference. My paper was a comparison of the pagan mystery stories of Osiris, Horus, and Mithras with the Christian story of Jesus. The paper was well attended with some special guests: a couple of atheist Facebook friends, Darrin Rasberry and John Loftus, and a few prominent Christian apologists. John and Darrin also attended the Earnestly Contending Apologetics Conference. John posted about his experience on his blog, Debunking Christianity. Although my interaction with these guys was limited (partly due to my nerves over presenting my first paper at the national conference), the time I did share with them was rewarding. I found John and Darrin to be gracious and thoughtful.

On Saturday, after the apologetics conference, Paul Copan invited the gentlemen to the presenters’ room to speak with William Lane Craig, Gary Habermas, James Sinclair, and himself. Wow! What an opportunity! What impressed me the most was the manner of exchange between the two “sides.” From reading John’s account and from what Darrin has told me—whether or not anyone was convinced of any argument—the experience was enjoyable for all. This kind of argumentation and dialogue is exactly what I hope to continue to promote here at Confident Christianity and on our Two Chix Apologetics Facebook group.Once in awhile, people ask me why I feel it is necessary to discuss these issues and why I do not “just leave people alone.”

My reply: 1) I actually do care about the people who interact with me, and 2) If there is a God, then the search for truth is the most important subject to address. This past weekend reminded me that while arguments are important, so are the people who hold to the arguments. Concern and love for people must take center stage in all of our lives.Thank you to all who made this past weekend such a wonderful time of discussion and fellowship.
MJ

22 thoughts on “ETS-EPS National Conference”

  1. This past weekend reminded me that while arguments are important, so are the people who hold to the arguments. Concern and love for people must take center stage in all of our lives.

    Exactly! It was nice meeting you and I feel the same way.

  2. These similarities between different religious figures are interesting.

    Are there any parallels between John the Baptist and Elijah?

    For example, did they both wear leather belts?

    Are there any dis-similarities between the stories of Elijah and John the Baptist?

    What did Jesus mean by saying that Elijah had come?

  3. //For example, did they both wear leather belts?//

    I am not sure how this relates to my investigation into the stories of the various pagan religions, the context of the stories, and the philosophy of human nature which is evidenced in the stories.

    //These similarities between different religious figures are interesting. Are there any parallels between John the Baptist and Elijah? Are there any dis-similarities between the stories of Elijah and John the Baptist? What did Jesus mean by saying that Elijah had come?//

    You may have the first round on explanation.

  5. I thought my questions were pretty easy to answer, especially for somebody who has been doing intense research on parallels between religious figures.

    I shall repeat them.

    Are there any parallels between John the Baptist and Elijah?

    For example, did they both wear leather belts? (The answer is yes)

    Are there any dis-similarities between the stories of Elijah and John the Baptist?

    What did Jesus mean by saying that Elijah had come?

  6. //I thought my questions were pretty easy to answer, especially for somebody who has been doing intense research on parallels between religious figures.//

    Ad hominem.

    //I am not sure how this relates to my investigation into the stories of the various pagan religions, the context of the stories, and the philosophy of human nature which is evidenced in the stories.//

    As I stated, I have been doing research on Osiris, Horus, Mithras and Jesus; not religious figures, in general. So I offered you the opportunity to politely explain your questions.

    //For example, did they both wear leather belts? (The answer is yes)//

    Perhaps, you did not understand that whether or not Jesus and Elijah wore belts (cultural dress of the day) is not the same as whether or not the stories of Jesus and Elijah have the same implications on the hearers’ ideology of death, resurrection, afterlife, salvation (philosophy of religion of the day).

    Please explain.

    Thank you,
    MJ

  7. There was no ad hominem.

    It is a simple fact that Christians are perfectly capable of seeing parallels between relgious figures whenever it suits them.

    Jesus said ‘Elijah has already come’.

    This commits Christians to explain that there were great parallels between John the Baptist and Elijah, while finding every conceivable thing to discredit parallels between Jesus and pagan religious figures.

    So what parallels were there between John the Baptist and Elijah, other than that they both wore leather belts?

  8. So the argument here is:

    1) There are parallels between the stories of a prophet of Judaism, Elijah, and the messenger of the Messiah of Judaism, John the Baptist

    2) There are parallels between the stories of Jesus and pagan mystery religions

    3) If parallels occur between the stories of religions, than the chronologically earlier religion is the source of the others

    4) The Elijah story of the Old Testament precedes John the Baptist, Jesus, and some of the first century pagan cults

    Therefore, 5) The story of Elijah is the source of the story of John the Baptist, Jesus, a few first century pagan religions (i.e. Mithraism), and any religion whose text or primary sources date later than the story of Elijah that include parallels to Elijah’s story

    Premise #3 is problematic because the chronology of the stories cannot be the sole consideration for influence on the development of the Christian story. This sort of argument leaves out other factors which may rule out the connection. It is also problematic if a person is ruling out the truthfulness of a belief or event based solely on a parallel to another belief or event, rather than investigating the belief or event based on its own merit.

    Premise #4 would be problematic for making a case against Christianity or Judaism copying later developments in pagan mystery stories, because conclusion #5 would follow. It would also seem to be problematic for any other religions that have a religious figure who ascended “to heaven” or bore any semblance to Elijah.

    Also:
    In the context of Messianic prophecy, the Jews expected Elijah to precede the Messiah, correct? (Malachi 4:5) When Jesus says in Matthew 17:12 that Elijah has already come, the context is within a small group of people (disciples) who were with Jesus at his transfiguration and who he was admonishing not to tell anyone what they had witnessed until after he raised from the dead (Matthew 16:20). His disciples are confused because they know Messianic prophecy states that Elijah must return before the Messiah. (Matthew 17:10) John the Baptist, as fulfilling the role of Elijah in Messianic prophecy, had been rejected by the Jewish religious leaders and so had his ministry (his role in preceding the Messiah: Matthew 11:10-15, Luke 1:17). Similarly, Jesus’ role as Messiah would be rejected by the Jewish religious leaders. Jesus is pointing out to the disciples the connection. Luke describes John’s role in the story of John’s birth in Luke 1:17, “and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared.” Jesus is making this comment in the context of the fulfillment of Jewish Messianic prophecy. That is how Jesus’ Jewish followers would have understood his statements.

    All things considered:

    How do arrive at a similar connection between Jesus and the pagan mysteries when you set everything into context even if there are parallels between Elijah and John?

    Thanks,
    MJ

  9. I didn’t make any argument.

    I didn’t get as far as number 1.

    1) There are parallels between the stories of a prophet of Judaism, Elijah, and the messenger of the Messiah of Judaism, John the Baptist

    What parallels were there?

    As far as I can see, the parallels are that both wore a leather belt.

    Are there any other parallels?

    Are there any dissimilarities?

    Those were my questions.

    They seem very hard to answer for you to address, for some reason that I cannot fathom.

  11. Steven,

    //They seem very hard to answer for you to address, for some reason that I cannot fathom.//

    It could be possible that so far in my studies this has not been something I have addressed. Or it could be that I do not see the pressing need to answer these questions. If you make an argument to demonstrate the need for a response, then maybe I will respond.

    //I didn’t make any argument.//

    Then I will politely suggest you go look up the answers to your questions and share them with me when you find them. Then, perhaps, develop an argument that you are trying to prove. Share the argument with me. After that, if I still discern a need to respond, I will.

    And having said that, since today is Thanksgiving, I’d like to wish you a Happy Thanksgiving!

    Thanks, Steven!

    MJ

  12. And a Happy Thanksgiving to you.

    I am rather gobsmacked that you can prepare a paper on parallels between different religious figures and never study any control examples of real , genuine parallels, or even seen any pressing need to do so.

  13. I did not “prepare a paper on parallels between different religious figures.” This is a generalization. My paper was specifically on Osiris, Horus, Mithras and Jesus. Would you like to discuss these particular religious figures?

    Since you are “gobsmacked” with me, I will say that I am rather surprised that you still have not made any argument other than your insinuations about my research. Do you have an argument? If so, make it.

    Thanks,
    MJ

  15. I am very interested in the topic of your paper. When are you going to share the paper with us? 🙂 If you’re saving it for proper publication, is there any chance you could paraphrase some of your points?

  16. Anonymous,

    I have posted on my ETS paper in various posts over the past year or so. In this particular paper, I went into more detail in recounting the myths of Osiris, Horus, and Mithras in my paper utilizing primary and secondary sources. Also, I spent more time on the comparison of these stories with the Christian story; especially with regards to death and sacrifice, resurrection and salvation.

    I am looking into what kinds of publishing opportunities exist for a paper of this sort (24 pages). If you would like more information on the paper please email me at the email on my profile.

    Thank you for your inquiry,
    MJ

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