This is an interesting video. I would be curious to know who was in charge of making it. I would be more interested to know how many people live this way verses the way we commonly see on television.
Forgive my brain today it is running a little slow. You wanted to know what we thought – so I thought I would be honest and say I am a little skeptical of the presentation. However, I am aware that there are even extremists in Christianity and sometimes they do taint how our religion is looked at as a whole; therefore, I acknowledge the possibility of it, but I admit being low on information in regards to Islam so it is hard to make a truly informed decision regarding it.
I appreciate you giving us something to think about.
April
God has greatly gifted you I enjoyed visiting your blog God Bless;
Yes…I am British and in the UK most of the converts to Islam are women
Honour killings…as discussedon my blog…is an unislamic concept.
Peace
Islam is peace? The teachings of the Quran are not all that lovely, in-fact certain portions are used by the fundamentalists to Justify their violence — they cherry pick the nasty stuff, like the maker of this video cherry picks the nice bits.
Of course these same people could use Christianity for example to do the same thing. If you know which bits are good and which are bad, then you know what behavior is good and what is bad already — so Islam is pretty irrelevant on that front. The main thing that Islam does is create in-groups and out-groups. It is a great separator of people. —————————– The Atheist Perspective
The video doesn't contain a single reference to the Islamic holy texts, which make it very clear that women are inferior, and are properties of men.
For instance men may beat their wives (4:34), men may have as many as four wives (4:3), a woman's testimony is worth half that of a mans (2:282), a male gets double the inheretance of a female (4:11) and on and on it goes.. It gets worse if you study the Haddith and get Muhammed's view.
Islam is surely the most oppressive religion towards women.
@anon
All religions result in "in/out groups"
Think about it
Yahya "the coward" Snow said: «All religions result in "in/out groups"»…
and what does this has to do with the clear fact that women in islam are considered inferior to men?
and can you present any evidence about this claim for, v.g., the Bahá'i religion or Christianity?
Yahya,
It's hard to take you seriously when you systematically censored the comments on your blog, while simultaneously complained that others had "censored" you on their's…and on top of that, as soon as you received a proper public challenge to your claims (Anthony Rogers of Answering-Islam challenged you to a written debate), and as soon as you started receiving traffic to your blog that was commenting from a non Islamic perspective, you surreptitiously CLOSED the comments section on your blog all together.
You shouldn't even be presenting yourself as an "apologist" if you can't handle challenges to your position and allow responses to your argumentation to be seen by the general public.
Women in Islam, according to ISLAMIC SOURCES rather than a fluffy documentary piece:
According to Islam women are:
Like domestic animals to 'enjoy' (Tabari 9:113); deficient in intellect & religion (Bukhari V1B6N301); prohibited from refusing sex (Bukhari V7B62N121); inferior to men & obedient (Surah 4:34); suitable for beating (Surah 4:34, Sahih Muslim #2127, Tabari 9:113, Sunan Dawud #2141, #2142); can be denied food and clothing for disobedience (Tabari 9:113); and the primary occupants of hell (Bukhari V7B62N126).
HELL IS FULL OF MOSTLY WOMEN Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 126: Narrated Imran: The Prophet said, "I looked at Paradise and saw that the majority of its residents were the poor; and I looked at the (Hell) Fire and saw that the majority of its residents were women."
MUHAMMAD WAS A WIFE-BEATER Muslim, 4:2127 – [paraphrase] In this narration Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. [Quote] "Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain.""
MUHAMMAD APROVED WIFE-BEATING FOR OTHERS Bukhari, 72:715 – [paraphrase] In this narration a woman came to Muhammad and begged him to stop her husband from beating her. Her skin was bruised so badly that she is described as being "greener" than the green veil she was wearing. Muhammad did not admonish her husband, but instead ordered her to return to him and submit to his sexual desires.
WOMEN ARE DEFICIENT IN INTELLECT AND RELIGION Sahih Bukhari V1B6N301: The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."
WOMEN WHO REFUSE SEX WITH THEIR HUSBAND ARE CURSED Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 121: …The Prophet said, "If a man Invites his wife to sleep with him and she refuses to come to him, then the angels send their curses on her till morning."
"Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: When a man invites his wife to his bed and she does not come, and he (the husband) spends the night being angry with her, the angels curse her until morning". (Sahih Muslim Vol. 2, p. 723)
Sahih Bukhari V3B48N826 "The Prophet said, 'Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?' The women said, 'Yes.' He said, 'This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind'."
WOMEN ARE LIKE DOMESTIC ANIMALS TO BE ‘ENJOYED’ Tabari IX:113 "Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur'an.
WOMEN ARE ANIMALS TO BE ‘RIDDEN’ "A Woman may be likened to a sheep—even a cow or a camel—for all are ridden.” (Tafsir al-Qurtubi vol.15, p.172)
FEMALES AS WAR-BOOTY Sahih Bukhari: Volume7,B62, N137: Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: We got female captives in the war booty and we used to do coitus interruptus with them. So we asked Allah's Apostle about it and he said, "Do you really do that?" repeating the question thrice, "There is no soul that is destined to exist but will come into existence, till the Day of Resurrection."
(cont)
Part 2
SEX WITH A SLAVE (AKA RIGHT HAND POSESSION) Sahih Bukhari.B59, N637) Narrated Buraida: The Prophet sent 'Ali to Khalid to bring the Khumus (of the booty) and I hated Ali, and 'Ali had taken a bath (after a sexual act with a slave-girl from the Khumus). I said to Khalid, "Don't you see this (i.e. Ali)?" When we reached the Prophet I mentioned that to him. He said, "O Buraida! Do you hate Ali?" I said, "Yes." He said, "Do you hate him, for he deserves more than that from the Khumus."
MUHAMMAD GIVES PERMISSION TO BEAT YOUR WIFE Sunan Dawud book 11, 2141 "…Do not beat Allah's handmaidens, but when Umar came to the Apostle of Allah and said 'Women have become emboldened towards their husbands', the Prophet gave permission to beat them."
Dawud Book 11, 2142 "Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab The Prophet said, “A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife."
"Narrated by Abu Hurayrah: Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said, "If I were to order anyone to prostrate himself before another, I should order a woman to prostrate herself before her husband." (Al-Tirmidhi Hadith, #3255)
And, of course, we can't forget Surah 4:34, which is the source for which the Dawud and Tabari quotes provide context:
Qur'an 4:34–Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret what Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great. (Pickthall)
Also see this index on women in Islam from Answeringmuslims.com, and in particular this post for a summation and preaching from Islamic scholars today.
I just went to check out the posting of the debate by the Mulism poster above. The video first shows a short segment with some quotes from my appearance on ABN in an attempt to discredit me before showing the debate (there are some false written quotes about me at the start). Wow. And to think I was trying to be ethical and just post the debate without any commentary on the debaters. You will notice that I did not attempt to slander my fellow debater or discredit her integrity with a video promo of any kind. That is unethical.
The video says it is a Muslim Debate Initiative production, so I can only assume it has their approval. Disappointing. I hope this is not representative of their organization in general or of my debate opponent, Tabasum Hussain, or of the North American Muslim Foundation that hosted the event. That would really be too bad. It was a great debate and this post really discourages further engagement.
MJ
Muslim video: "removed by user"
🙂
Roger Sharp
I appreciate that the video has been removed for it really presented the Muslim organizations involved with the debate in such a bad light. And I did not get this sort of feel from talking with Dr. Hussain, who was very respectful and engaging. I hope that the posting of the video on Muslim Debate Initiative's site will be a marked improvement, allowing each debater to be critiqued on their arguments.
Hey,
This is an interesting video. I would be curious to know who was in charge of making it. I would be more interested to know how many people live this way verses the way we commonly see on television.
Forgive my brain today it is running a little slow. You wanted to know what we thought – so I thought I would be honest and say I am a little skeptical of the presentation. However, I am aware that there are even extremists in Christianity and sometimes they do taint how our religion is looked at as a whole; therefore, I acknowledge the possibility of it, but I admit being low on information in regards to Islam so it is hard to make a truly informed decision regarding it.
I appreciate you giving us something to think about.
April
God has greatly gifted you
I enjoyed visiting your blog
God Bless;
http://westbob.blogspot.com/2010/02/encourager-part-1.html
Thanks alot for this
Yes…I am British and in the UK most of the converts to Islam are women
Honour killings…as discussedon my blog…is an unislamic concept.
Peace
Islam is peace? The teachings of the Quran are not all that lovely, in-fact certain portions are used by the fundamentalists to Justify their violence — they cherry pick the nasty stuff, like the maker of this video cherry picks the nice bits.
Of course these same people could use Christianity for example to do the same thing. If you know which bits are good and which are bad, then you know what behavior is good and what is bad already — so Islam is pretty irrelevant on that front. The main thing that Islam does is create in-groups and out-groups. It is a great separator of people.
—————————–
The Atheist Perspective
The video doesn't contain a single reference to the Islamic holy texts, which make it very clear that women are inferior, and are properties of men.
For instance men may beat their wives (4:34), men may have as many as four wives (4:3), a woman's testimony is worth half that of a mans (2:282), a male gets double the inheretance of a female (4:11) and on and on it goes..
It gets worse if you study the Haddith and get Muhammed's view.
Islam is surely the most oppressive religion towards women.
@anon
All religions result in "in/out groups"
Think about it
Yahya "the coward" Snow said: «All religions result in "in/out groups"»…
and what does this has to do with the clear fact that women in islam are considered inferior to men?
and can you present any evidence about this claim for, v.g., the Bahá'i religion or Christianity?
Yahya,
It's hard to take you seriously when you systematically censored the comments on your blog, while simultaneously complained that others had "censored" you on their's…and on top of that, as soon as you received a proper public challenge to your claims (Anthony Rogers of Answering-Islam challenged you to a written debate), and as soon as you started receiving traffic to your blog that was commenting from a non Islamic perspective, you surreptitiously CLOSED the comments section on your blog all together.
You shouldn't even be presenting yourself as an "apologist" if you can't handle challenges to your position and allow responses to your argumentation to be seen by the general public.
Women in Islam, according to ISLAMIC SOURCES rather than a fluffy documentary piece:
According to Islam women are:
Like domestic animals to 'enjoy' (Tabari 9:113); deficient in intellect & religion (Bukhari V1B6N301); prohibited from refusing sex (Bukhari V7B62N121); inferior to men & obedient (Surah 4:34); suitable for beating (Surah 4:34, Sahih Muslim #2127, Tabari 9:113, Sunan Dawud #2141, #2142); can be denied food and clothing for disobedience (Tabari 9:113); and the primary occupants of hell (Bukhari V7B62N126).
HELL IS FULL OF MOSTLY WOMEN
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 126: Narrated Imran: The Prophet said, "I looked at Paradise and saw that the majority of its residents were the poor; and I looked at the (Hell) Fire and saw that the majority of its residents were women."
MUHAMMAD WAS A WIFE-BEATER
Muslim, 4:2127 – [paraphrase] In this narration Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. [Quote] "Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain.""
MUHAMMAD APROVED WIFE-BEATING FOR OTHERS
Bukhari, 72:715 – [paraphrase] In this narration a woman came to Muhammad and begged him to stop her husband from beating her. Her skin was bruised so badly that she is described as being "greener" than the green veil she was wearing. Muhammad did not admonish her husband, but instead ordered her to return to him and submit to his sexual desires.
WOMEN ARE DEFICIENT IN INTELLECT AND RELIGION
Sahih Bukhari V1B6N301: The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."
WOMEN WHO REFUSE SEX WITH THEIR HUSBAND ARE CURSED
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 121:
…The Prophet said, "If a man Invites his wife to sleep with him and she refuses to come to him, then the angels send their curses on her till morning."
"Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: When a man invites his wife to his bed and she does not come, and he (the husband) spends the night being angry with her, the angels curse her until morning".
(Sahih Muslim Vol. 2, p. 723)
Sahih Bukhari V3B48N826 "The Prophet said, 'Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?' The women said, 'Yes.' He said, 'This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind'."
WOMEN ARE LIKE DOMESTIC ANIMALS TO BE ‘ENJOYED’
Tabari IX:113 "Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur'an.
WOMEN ARE ANIMALS TO BE ‘RIDDEN’
"A Woman may be likened to a sheep—even a cow or a camel—for all are ridden.” (Tafsir al-Qurtubi vol.15, p.172)
FEMALES AS WAR-BOOTY
Sahih Bukhari: Volume7,B62, N137:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
We got female captives in the war booty and we used to do coitus interruptus with them. So we asked Allah's Apostle about it and he said, "Do you really do that?" repeating the question thrice, "There is no soul that is destined to exist but will come into existence, till the Day of Resurrection."
(cont)
Part 2
SEX WITH A SLAVE (AKA RIGHT HAND POSESSION)
Sahih Bukhari.B59, N637)
Narrated Buraida: The Prophet sent 'Ali to Khalid to bring the Khumus (of the booty) and I hated Ali, and 'Ali had taken a bath (after a sexual act with a slave-girl from the Khumus). I said to Khalid, "Don't you see this (i.e. Ali)?" When we reached the Prophet I mentioned that to him. He said, "O Buraida! Do you hate Ali?" I said, "Yes." He said, "Do you hate him, for he deserves more than that from the Khumus."
MUHAMMAD GIVES PERMISSION TO BEAT YOUR WIFE
Sunan Dawud book 11, 2141
"…Do not beat Allah's handmaidens, but when Umar came to the Apostle of Allah and said 'Women have become emboldened towards their husbands', the Prophet gave permission to beat them."
Dawud Book 11, 2142
"Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab
The Prophet said, “A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife."
"Narrated by Abu Hurayrah: Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said, "If I were to order anyone to prostrate himself before another, I should order a woman to prostrate herself before her husband." (Al-Tirmidhi Hadith, #3255)
And, of course, we can't forget Surah 4:34, which is the source for which the Dawud and Tabari quotes provide context:
Qur'an 4:34–Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret what Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great. (Pickthall)
Also see this index on women in Islam from Answeringmuslims.com, and in particular this post for a summation and preaching from Islamic scholars today.
The Muslim recording of the Mary Jo/Tabasum Hussain debate is up at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLcbMkzqtx8
I just went to check out the posting of the debate by the Mulism poster above. The video first shows a short segment with some quotes from my appearance on ABN in an attempt to discredit me before showing the debate (there are some false written quotes about me at the start). Wow. And to think I was trying to be ethical and just post the debate without any commentary on the debaters. You will notice that I did not attempt to slander my fellow debater or discredit her integrity with a video promo of any kind. That is unethical.
The video says it is a Muslim Debate Initiative production, so I can only assume it has their approval. Disappointing. I hope this is not representative of their organization in general or of my debate opponent, Tabasum Hussain, or of the North American Muslim Foundation that hosted the event. That would really be too bad. It was a great debate and this post really discourages further engagement.
MJ
Muslim video: "removed by user"
🙂
Roger Sharp
I appreciate that the video has been removed for it really presented the Muslim organizations involved with the debate in such a bad light. And I did not get this sort of feel from talking with Dr. Hussain, who was very respectful and engaging. I hope that the posting of the video on Muslim Debate Initiative's site will be a marked improvement, allowing each debater to be critiqued on their arguments.
MJ